Predicate Proposal - Member of sports team (current player)

Usage in wikidata: member of - Wikidata

Usage in

@technopoint2020 This looks good, and I especially like the distinction in incorrect use that coach is not a correct use.

Do you think it is worth adding another example of incorrect use to distinguish official current players from rumored players? I am not entirely sure myself if necessary, but bringing it up in case you think it might be an issue worth mentioning.

On other minor note: I think for title of this field that Member of sports team (current) is good - you also have it as Member of sports team (current player) in a couple of places so I would update those to be consistent one way or another.


Added an example of incorrect use

  • Cristiano Ronaldo’ → ‘Member of sports team (current player)’ → ‘Real Madrid C’ is incorrect, because he is not an active player of this club, it’s just a rumor.

Fixed it, thank you!

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@technopoint2020 do you see an advantage with having both this ‘Member of sports team’ predicate and a generic ‘Member of’ predicate? I’d personally lean towards the more generic ‘Member of’ predicate

I’m interested in this aspect, too. I almost wonder if there’s a more generic “employed by” predicate that we could use more universally across organizations & people.

‘Member of’ predicate - Constraints: Only accepts organizations.
But if I understand correctly, a sports club can be not only an organization, but also a company.

Then what predicates can we show that a player previously played for these teams (for example Real Madrid, Juventus), and now plays for this team (for example Manchester United)?

Under our definition of organization, any company would also be an organization. But not every organization would also be a company (i.e. a non-profit organization)

One of the things we’re actively working to do is build a concept of “qualifiers” to triples. As an example:

Marco Silva → employed by → Fulham FC

Triple with qualifier:
Marco Silva → employed by → Fulham FC, [starting 1 July 2021] [title: Head coach / Manager]
Marco Silva → employed by → Everton, [starting 31 May 2018] [ending 5 December 2019] [title: Head Coach / Manager]

So in this case, you can add qualifiers of dates and titles to specify when the “employed by” triple for that specific object was valid, and the position they were employed in. (Other types of triples may have other kinds of qualifiers.)

The nice thing about this is that it allows end users who are querying data to use more general predicates, which tends to be much more powerful for them. (Versus needing to use one predicate if they’re querying athletes, a different predicate for actors or movie directors, a different predicate for businesspeople, etc.)

@jed Ok. It’s a great idea - “qualifiers”. I agree.

Then let’s recap.
1 - If the Person plays for any sports club, then we should choose the future predicate “Member of” ? Is the predicate “Member of” suitable for the Company?
2 - If the Person is coaching a club, then we choose the current predicate “Current Employer” ?

This framing for using ‘employed by’ seems very compelling to model members of specific sports teams. Interesting how wikidata does not seem to have taken this path but instead uses a ‘member of sports team’ predicate member of sports team - Wikidata that ie christiano ronaldo uses Cristiano Ronaldo - Wikidata.

The approach with qualifiers seems simpler and has significant benefits on querying as you mention.

Then let’s recap.
If the Person plays for any sports club, then we should choose the future predicate “Member of” ? Is the predicate “Member of” suitable for the Company?

I think “employed by” is more accurate to capture employment, which is the situation for players on sports teams. That seems to be the consensus from the discussion above, too.

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@jed I just looked at this player Cristiano Ronaldo. It uses the predicate ‘member of sports team’ .

Yes, Wikidata has and uses the “member of sports team” predicate but Golden doesn’t have to follow the same data model. :slight_smile:

I think capturing this data with a more generalized “employed by” predicate is more sustainable long-term. It would enable users to query just one predicate to understand where individuals are or have been employed, instead of needing to understand that you use one predicate for a certain type of job and a different predicate for other types of jobs.

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Then it is more correct to introduce the concept and predicate “Profession”, that is, the activity that a person does

@jed @jen @leeds

Could we insert these examples into a predicate “employed by”? This is a very huge industry, so it’s worth mentioning these examples.

Some thoughts on the predicate

Member of

Imo it is a too broad category, as it may cover various aspects starting Sport teams/clubs ending political parties/ movements. Taking this into account, I suppose it would be slightly weird to see something like

John Johnson
Member of
Manchester United
Democratic Party
Alaska Fish Federation

Therefore, I would not introduce such a predicate, imo we need several more specific categories

This is a fair point, but

  1. there are likely ways to optimize the application layer for predicates with many results displayed (i.e. displaying the ‘most visited’ entities first)
  2. it will simplify the data contribution process to use fewer predicates

There may be an opportunity for a hybrid solution with a few predicates capturing the ‘member of’ values that would benefit the graph